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	<title>Comments on: Whither Counterculture on the Net?</title>
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	<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net</link>
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		<title>By: Geek Studies &#187; Blog Archive &#187; How Gamers Strike Back on the Web</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net/comment-page-1#comment-568</link>
		<dc:creator>Geek Studies &#187; Blog Archive &#187; How Gamers Strike Back on the Web</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:53:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net#comment-568</guid>
		<description>[...] since writing—and, more importantly, getting comments on—a post about counterculture on the internet, I have been keeping an eye open for examples of geek-oriented activism on the internet. I&#8217;ve [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] since writing—and, more importantly, getting comments on—a post about counterculture on the internet, I have been keeping an eye open for examples of geek-oriented activism on the internet. I&#8217;ve [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt S</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net/comment-page-1#comment-330</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net#comment-330</guid>
		<description>Interesting post and conversation.  For some context on the discussion you may be interested in picking up the book Counter Culture Through The Ages, by Ken Goffman, better known as RU Sirius, the founder and former editor of Mondo 2000.  

In the book he starts out with Socrates and Taoism and traces the counter culture strain up until the late 80s/early 90s, touching on a handful of the bigger movements.  It definitely provides an interesting context to think about the concept of counter culture movements and what the term really means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post and conversation.  For some context on the discussion you may be interested in picking up the book Counter Culture Through The Ages, by Ken Goffman, better known as RU Sirius, the founder and former editor of Mondo 2000.  </p>
<p>In the book he starts out with Socrates and Taoism and traces the counter culture strain up until the late 80s/early 90s, touching on a handful of the bigger movements.  It definitely provides an interesting context to think about the concept of counter culture movements and what the term really means.</p>
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		<title>By: Church</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net/comment-page-1#comment-281</link>
		<dc:creator>Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 04:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net#comment-281</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;but you will get people mimicking the embodied protest methods of the “real” world. &lt;/I&gt;

I&#039;m glad you used &#039;scare quotes&#039; (not the best term here, but the one I know.) 

The distinction between the &#039;real&#039; and &#039;online&#039; worlds is becoming increasingly meaningless. I find all my music online. I buy and/or download all my music online. If something is happening with regards to music, and it&#039;s not online, it&#039;s not &#039;real.&#039; (At least, to me.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>but you will get people mimicking the embodied protest methods of the “real” world. </i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad you used &#8216;scare quotes&#8217; (not the best term here, but the one I know.) </p>
<p>The distinction between the &#8216;real&#8217; and &#8216;online&#8217; worlds is becoming increasingly meaningless. I find all my music online. I buy and/or download all my music online. If something is happening with regards to music, and it&#8217;s not online, it&#8217;s not &#8216;real.&#8217; (At least, to me.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net/comment-page-1#comment-274</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 23:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net#comment-274</guid>
		<description>1) On &quot;cyber resistance&quot;: That may be a useful analogy. I was thinking today that what the web and file sharing networks might be best at, resistance-wise, is simply creating a massive forum to openly flaunt opposition to the control of information resources. The RIAA and MPAA can sue file sharers, but the very practice of torrent downloading (not to mention vocal, organized forces like &lt;a href=&quot;http://thepiratebay.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Pirate Bay&lt;/a&gt;) stands as proof that they can&#039;t catch &lt;i&gt;everybody&lt;/i&gt;. The DVD key extravaganza worked similarly, flooding the web with &quot;restricted&quot; information just to flaunt that it could never all be forcibly removed. 

This kind of activity stands kind of in contrast to active resistance in avatar-based online environments, though, which are supposed to mimic the way we might act in the real world. Compared to a semi-organized movement on the web, you might not get a massive number of protesters/activists in a single place in Second Life (which I believe has processor limits to how many avatars can occupy a single space at a single time), but you will get people mimicking the embodied protest methods of the &quot;real&quot; world. Avatar-based venues also enable somewhat shocking forms of protest that you can inflict upon others in ways you couldn&#039;t do in the physical world, like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=30420&amp;in_page_id=34&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;attacking a person with flying genitalia&lt;/a&gt; or &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2006/09/16/americasarmy/index_np.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;getting intentionally killed in a war game&lt;/a&gt;.

Again, though, these sorts of activities are most effective when they &quot;leave&quot; the internet, like being reported on in other media. I doubt there&#039;s much effectiveness in guilt-tripping kids playing &lt;i&gt;America&#039;s Army&lt;/i&gt; while they&#039;re in the middle of playing the game, though as protest-oriented performance art goes, it&#039;s an interesting example to ponder.

2) That linked post by Kelty is priceless—thanks. This is why I have been trying to submit to journals that publish online or otherwise allow for easy access (still waiting on results). I hear that online publication is less attractive for your job/tenure prospects, but would I really want to work for a school that wants to hire a &quot;new media&quot; person but doesn&#039;t put any stock in the legitimacy of said media?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) On &#8220;cyber resistance&#8221;: That may be a useful analogy. I was thinking today that what the web and file sharing networks might be best at, resistance-wise, is simply creating a massive forum to openly flaunt opposition to the control of information resources. The RIAA and MPAA can sue file sharers, but the very practice of torrent downloading (not to mention vocal, organized forces like <a href="http://thepiratebay.org" rel="nofollow">The Pirate Bay</a>) stands as proof that they can&#8217;t catch <i>everybody</i>. The DVD key extravaganza worked similarly, flooding the web with &#8220;restricted&#8221; information just to flaunt that it could never all be forcibly removed. </p>
<p>This kind of activity stands kind of in contrast to active resistance in avatar-based online environments, though, which are supposed to mimic the way we might act in the real world. Compared to a semi-organized movement on the web, you might not get a massive number of protesters/activists in a single place in Second Life (which I believe has processor limits to how many avatars can occupy a single space at a single time), but you will get people mimicking the embodied protest methods of the &#8220;real&#8221; world. Avatar-based venues also enable somewhat shocking forms of protest that you can inflict upon others in ways you couldn&#8217;t do in the physical world, like <a href="http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=30420&#038;in_page_id=34" rel="nofollow">attacking a person with flying genitalia</a> or <a href="http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2006/09/16/americasarmy/index_np.html" rel="nofollow">getting intentionally killed in a war game</a>.</p>
<p>Again, though, these sorts of activities are most effective when they &#8220;leave&#8221; the internet, like being reported on in other media. I doubt there&#8217;s much effectiveness in guilt-tripping kids playing <i>America&#8217;s Army</i> while they&#8217;re in the middle of playing the game, though as protest-oriented performance art goes, it&#8217;s an interesting example to ponder.</p>
<p>2) That linked post by Kelty is priceless—thanks. This is why I have been trying to submit to journals that publish online or otherwise allow for easy access (still waiting on results). I hear that online publication is less attractive for your job/tenure prospects, but would I really want to work for a school that wants to hire a &#8220;new media&#8221; person but doesn&#8217;t put any stock in the legitimacy of said media?</p>
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		<title>By: Church</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net/comment-page-1#comment-267</link>
		<dc:creator>Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:38:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net#comment-267</guid>
		<description>Hey, thanks for bringing this up. This is easily the best conversation fodder I&#039;ve had in a while. 

The best analogy I could come up with is that the &#039;cyber resistence&#039; of today is less like the anti-war protests of the &#039;60&#039;s and more like practices such as squatting. It&#039;s implementing your ideals regardless of what the current legal framework is. The fact that it usually happens in the nooks and cranies of the net both engenders and obscures this fact.

Side discussion that led to some quite eye-opening conversations with academic friends; WTF is up with having to pay $12 to Anthro Source to find out what &#039;recursive public&#039; means? Trying to google around the damage led to this illuminating link: http://savageminds.org/2005/05/24/recursive-public-irony/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, thanks for bringing this up. This is easily the best conversation fodder I&#8217;ve had in a while. </p>
<p>The best analogy I could come up with is that the &#8216;cyber resistence&#8217; of today is less like the anti-war protests of the &#8217;60&#8242;s and more like practices such as squatting. It&#8217;s implementing your ideals regardless of what the current legal framework is. The fact that it usually happens in the nooks and cranies of the net both engenders and obscures this fact.</p>
<p>Side discussion that led to some quite eye-opening conversations with academic friends; WTF is up with having to pay $12 to Anthro Source to find out what &#8216;recursive public&#8217; means? Trying to google around the damage led to this illuminating link: <a href="http://savageminds.org/2005/05/24/recursive-public-irony/" rel="nofollow">http://savageminds.org/2005/05/24/recursive-public-irony/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net/comment-page-1#comment-262</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net#comment-262</guid>
		<description>First off, thank you thank you for the link to the &lt;i&gt;Time&lt;/i&gt; blog, which I didn&#039;t even know existed. 

Second, I had totally forgotten about the Digg rebellion (which I even &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/05/geeks-digg-free-speech&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;wrote about&lt;/a&gt;). You could probably argue that it wasn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;totally&lt;/i&gt; confined to the net—I saw some t-shirts, for example—but yeah, it was blogs and YouTube videos and such that really made the difference. Again, one could argue that this isn&#039;t properly &quot;resistant&quot; because it was about supporting the underlying consumer mentality that the content industries do want to encourage. Phrasing it in terms of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Streisand effect&quot;&lt;/a&gt;, while still referring to consumption of entertainment, at least speaks to trying to replace an ideology of top-down control of content with one of bottom-up control. Looked at another way, we might see this as trying to replace a sort of &quot;Orwellian Lite&quot; view of information management (in which the people in power can redefine history through censorship) with a &quot;free information&quot; view (in which people deserve access to information even if potentially damaging to those in power). 

I think you could argue that this was starting before the internet, and maybe shares some common ground with fan fiction. But I also think that the internet makes it possible for this ideology to be more widespread as never before.

And finally, I&#039;d argue that Second Life protests do count, as do &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2006/09/16/americasarmy/index_np.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;protesters intentionally getting shot in America&#039;s Army&lt;/a&gt;. Ironically, I went into this post thinking so specifically of the internet as the web that it kind of eluded me that it does involve some &quot;embodied&quot; spaces of its own. That said, I think that geeky activism has a better potential to reach non-geeky audiences when it takes its messages offline, at least for now. Maybe that will change in the future when, metaphorically speaking, &lt;i&gt;everybody&lt;/i&gt; exists in the Matrix, not just as passing tourists, and everyone knows nerds are the elite who can jump across buildings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First off, thank you thank you for the link to the <i>Time</i> blog, which I didn&#8217;t even know existed. </p>
<p>Second, I had totally forgotten about the Digg rebellion (which I even <a href="http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/05/geeks-digg-free-speech" rel="nofollow">wrote about</a>). You could probably argue that it wasn&#8217;t <i>totally</i> confined to the net—I saw some t-shirts, for example—but yeah, it was blogs and YouTube videos and such that really made the difference. Again, one could argue that this isn&#8217;t properly &#8220;resistant&#8221; because it was about supporting the underlying consumer mentality that the content industries do want to encourage. Phrasing it in terms of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Streisand effect&#8221;</a>, while still referring to consumption of entertainment, at least speaks to trying to replace an ideology of top-down control of content with one of bottom-up control. Looked at another way, we might see this as trying to replace a sort of &#8220;Orwellian Lite&#8221; view of information management (in which the people in power can redefine history through censorship) with a &#8220;free information&#8221; view (in which people deserve access to information even if potentially damaging to those in power). </p>
<p>I think you could argue that this was starting before the internet, and maybe shares some common ground with fan fiction. But I also think that the internet makes it possible for this ideology to be more widespread as never before.</p>
<p>And finally, I&#8217;d argue that Second Life protests do count, as do <a href="http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2006/09/16/americasarmy/index_np.html" rel="nofollow">protesters intentionally getting shot in America&#8217;s Army</a>. Ironically, I went into this post thinking so specifically of the internet as the web that it kind of eluded me that it does involve some &#8220;embodied&#8221; spaces of its own. That said, I think that geeky activism has a better potential to reach non-geeky audiences when it takes its messages offline, at least for now. Maybe that will change in the future when, metaphorically speaking, <i>everybody</i> exists in the Matrix, not just as passing tourists, and everyone knows nerds are the elite who can jump across buildings.</p>
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		<title>By: Church</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net/comment-page-1#comment-260</link>
		<dc:creator>Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net#comment-260</guid>
		<description>Does this count?

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2007/09/international-u.html

Naturally, there&#039;s a flip side. Meet virtual Blackwater:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2007/09/guarding-newt-s.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does this count?</p>
<p><a href="http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2007/09/international-u.html" rel="nofollow">http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2007/09/international-u.html</a></p>
<p>Naturally, there&#8217;s a flip side. Meet virtual Blackwater:</p>
<p><a href="http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2007/09/guarding-newt-s.html" rel="nofollow">http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2007/09/guarding-newt-s.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Church</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net/comment-page-1#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2007/09/whither-counterculture-on-the-net#comment-258</guid>
		<description>A larger and larger portion of our lives are lived online now, and movements that never leave that arena are increasingly important. Witness the &#039;digg rebellion&#039; this spring (09 f9...) Entirely confined to the net, and yet it had an impact on the way others behave. Nixon Peabody reversed its initial attempts to have its embarassing theme song removed from the internet, doubtless because it was becoming apparent that a similar pushback was developing (I should probably note that I took part in both.)

(Side thought: is there a &#039;Striesand Effect&#039; outside of the internet?) 

OT, but of general interest, see this blog entry over at Time:
http://time-blog.com/nerd_world/2007/09/the_great_nerd_culture_gap.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A larger and larger portion of our lives are lived online now, and movements that never leave that arena are increasingly important. Witness the &#8216;digg rebellion&#8217; this spring (09 f9&#8230;) Entirely confined to the net, and yet it had an impact on the way others behave. Nixon Peabody reversed its initial attempts to have its embarassing theme song removed from the internet, doubtless because it was becoming apparent that a similar pushback was developing (I should probably note that I took part in both.)</p>
<p>(Side thought: is there a &#8216;Striesand Effect&#8217; outside of the internet?) </p>
<p>OT, but of general interest, see this blog entry over at Time:<br />
<a href="http://time-blog.com/nerd_world/2007/09/the_great_nerd_culture_gap.html" rel="nofollow">http://time-blog.com/nerd_world/2007/09/the_great_nerd_culture_gap.html</a></p>
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