Comments on: What Does Bill Gates Have to Do with the Revenge of the Nerds? http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:01:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Geek Studies » Links: The State of the Geek http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds/comment-page-1#comment-1981 Geek Studies » Links: The State of the Geek Fri, 22 May 2009 21:54:43 +0000 http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds#comment-1981 [...] the traditional masculine value of having an impressive source of income, as we’ve discussed elsewhere here. Comic books and video games—which are still widely believed to offer not much more than [...] [...] the traditional masculine value of having an impressive source of income, as we’ve discussed elsewhere here. Comic books and video games—which are still widely believed to offer not much more than [...]

]]> By: Jason Tocci http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds/comment-page-1#comment-894 Jason Tocci Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:19:51 +0000 http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds#comment-894 Thanks again to everyone for all the comments. I gave a practice version of my presentation yesterday, and the verdict was basically, "fun, but disorganized." So, this weekend, I'm reorganizing. My advisor also recommended throwing a video into the middle somewhere. I have some ideas about what might make sense (perhaps even some footage I shot at Come Out and Play?), but for an example of geeks making fun of the "money = masculinity" mindset, you probably can't beat YT Cracker's foray into mainstream rap, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6dJtScSnxM" rel="nofollow">LOL Money</a>. Thanks again to everyone for all the comments. I gave a practice version of my presentation yesterday, and the verdict was basically, “fun, but disorganized.” So, this weekend, I’m reorganizing.

My advisor also recommended throwing a video into the middle somewhere. I have some ideas about what might make sense (perhaps even some footage I shot at Come Out and Play?), but for an example of geeks making fun of the “money = masculinity” mindset, you probably can’t beat YT Cracker’s foray into mainstream rap, LOL Money.

]]> By: Dan http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds/comment-page-1#comment-891 Dan Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:17:20 +0000 http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds#comment-891 From a purely economic standpoint, if geeks are now making money—and I contend that not only are they doing so, but they also tend to be willing to spend that money on consumer goods, especially technology—that makes them an attractive demographic for advertisers, content providers, and technological product companies. All of that specific targeting puts them more in the public eye, which kind of helps enhance their perception as cool. Or, at least, successful. From a purely economic standpoint, if geeks are now making money—and I contend that not only are they doing so, but they also tend to be willing to spend that money on consumer goods, especially technology—that makes them an attractive demographic for advertisers, content providers, and technological product companies. All of that specific targeting puts them more in the public eye, which kind of helps enhance their perception as cool. Or, at least, successful.

]]> By: Ben http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds/comment-page-1#comment-890 Ben Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:01:27 +0000 http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds#comment-890 I don't think Bill Gates is responsible for geeks becoming cool. At least not directly. I feel like I was always told growing up that my smarts would someday make me money. Not necessarily as a computer programmer, but more likely a doctor or engineer or something. I believed it, other people believed it, but it didn't make me any cooler. In fact, it may have made me less cool. So I don't think nerds have become cool because people realize they can make money. I think the rise of geek coolness is based on the realization that geeks can be cool, funny, and friendly people in their own way. The antecedents for this are not so much the Bill Gateses as the Woody Allens and Quentin Tarantinos--celebrities who managed to be geeky and cool at the same time. Also, the creation of a geek consumer market, facilitated by computer and internet technology, led to a rise in geek culture which gradually spilled over into the mainstream. It may just be the idealist in me talking, but I don't think money is the reason we're suddenly cool(er). I don’t think Bill Gates is responsible for geeks becoming cool. At least not directly. I feel like I was always told growing up that my smarts would someday make me money. Not necessarily as a computer programmer, but more likely a doctor or engineer or something. I believed it, other people believed it, but it didn’t make me any cooler. In fact, it may have made me less cool. So I don’t think nerds have become cool because people realize they can make money.

I think the rise of geek coolness is based on the realization that geeks can be cool, funny, and friendly people in their own way. The antecedents for this are not so much the Bill Gateses as the Woody Allens and Quentin Tarantinos–celebrities who managed to be geeky and cool at the same time. Also, the creation of a geek consumer market, facilitated by computer and internet technology, led to a rise in geek culture which gradually spilled over into the mainstream.

It may just be the idealist in me talking, but I don’t think money is the reason we’re suddenly cool(er).

]]> By: Jason Tocci http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds/comment-page-1#comment-888 Jason Tocci Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:34:05 +0000 http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds#comment-888 That's definitely a fair question. To some extent, I suspect that the influence goes both ways: As such fields have an increasing female presence, they are seen as more mainstream; and as such fields seem more mainstream, they attract more females. I think that Margolis and Fisher's <i>Unlocking the Clubhouse</i>—which discusses the male-dominated, stereotypically geeky atmosphere at CMU's computer science program—focuses on the latter argument. That is, the argument there is that the CMU program needed to be made more female-friendly before it could be seen as more mainstream. A follow-up article by Blum and Frieze argued that CMU later managed to correct this problem by actively recruiting students who didn't have a background in computer science, enforcing gender balance, and encouraging personal interests beyond computers among the student body. (That article, "The Evolving Culture of Computing," is probably locked away for those not in universities, but I think an earlier version is available for free <a href="http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~lblum/PAPERS/TheEvolvingCSCulture.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>.) That’s definitely a fair question. To some extent, I suspect that the influence goes both ways: As such fields have an increasing female presence, they are seen as more mainstream; and as such fields seem more mainstream, they attract more females.

I think that Margolis and Fisher’s Unlocking the Clubhouse—which discusses the male-dominated, stereotypically geeky atmosphere at CMU’s computer science program—focuses on the latter argument. That is, the argument there is that the CMU program needed to be made more female-friendly before it could be seen as more mainstream. A follow-up article by Blum and Frieze argued that CMU later managed to correct this problem by actively recruiting students who didn’t have a background in computer science, enforcing gender balance, and encouraging personal interests beyond computers among the student body. (That article, “The Evolving Culture of Computing,” is probably locked away for those not in universities, but I think an earlier version is available for free here.)

]]> By: hmmm http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds/comment-page-1#comment-887 hmmm Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:54:46 +0000 http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds#comment-887 Interesting, but this discussion seems to be framed largely as geek = male geek? What about female geeks? And what role has the larger numbers of women (or at least, larger visibility of women) in 'geek' fields like science and tech, contributed to the mainstreaming of geek into things like 'geek chic'? Interesting, but this discussion seems to be framed largely as geek = male geek? What about female geeks? And what role has the larger numbers of women (or at least, larger visibility of women) in ‘geek’ fields like science and tech, contributed to the mainstreaming of geek into things like ‘geek chic’?

]]> By: Jason Tocci http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds/comment-page-1#comment-886 Jason Tocci Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:32:04 +0000 http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds#comment-886 Carol: Thanks for the post! I wanted to link to something I once read that seemed relevant to your comment, but it turns out that googling "geek boyfriend" yields way more results (many arguing that geeks do make great boyfriends) than I ever imagined... Justin: Thanks for clarifying. I think that makes a lot of sense, and kind of fits with somewhat parallel arguments made in literature about marketing to racial and sexual minorities: It's not like the readers of <i>Out</i> and <i>Advocate</i> are dying for Abercrombie to court them, but there's something to be said for being openly recognized as part of our society at large. Carol:
Thanks for the post! I wanted to link to something I once read that seemed relevant to your comment, but it turns out that googling “geek boyfriend” yields way more results (many arguing that geeks do make great boyfriends) than I ever imagined…

Justin:
Thanks for clarifying. I think that makes a lot of sense, and kind of fits with somewhat parallel arguments made in literature about marketing to racial and sexual minorities: It’s not like the readers of Out and Advocate are dying for Abercrombie to court them, but there’s something to be said for being openly recognized as part of our society at large.

]]> By: Justin Miller http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds/comment-page-1#comment-885 Justin Miller Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:46:38 +0000 http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds#comment-885 <em>I’m also wondering, Justin, what you mean by “purchasing power.” I’ve been thinking a lot about companies trying to market stuff to geeks (e.g., this season’s spate of geek-oriented TV, and pretty much all of what Comic Con has become), and wondering if this counts as some sort of external validation or economic power. Is it such a good thing to be marketed to? Are geeks especially good at defining the terms of how stuff is marketed to them? (Or have I completely missed what you mean to refer to with regard to “purchasing power”?)</em> No, you got it. I just mean that the geek demographic, as much as geeks have demographic qualities in common, is a growing power, what with video games continuing to rise in popularity (WoW 10 million subscribers, though this does count a lot of non-Western gamers, etc.). You start to see companies reaching for a bigger slice of the pie (e.g., Wii, built for both geeks and non-geeks). But I think that by and large, geeks could give a crap -- they just want the goods, vs. "hey, we're finally being marketed to in a big way" -- so I don't think that it's a form of validation in itself. I think the validation comes from the increased awareness of geek culture by non-geeks, with a bit more crossover of participation in that culture by non-geeks, that serves to lend a bit of normalcy to geek culture. I’m also wondering, Justin, what you mean by “purchasing power.” I’ve been thinking a lot about companies trying to market stuff to geeks (e.g., this season’s spate of geek-oriented TV, and pretty much all of what Comic Con has become), and wondering if this counts as some sort of external validation or economic power. Is it such a good thing to be marketed to? Are geeks especially good at defining the terms of how stuff is marketed to them? (Or have I completely missed what you mean to refer to with regard to “purchasing power”?)

No, you got it. I just mean that the geek demographic, as much as geeks have demographic qualities in common, is a growing power, what with video games continuing to rise in popularity (WoW 10 million subscribers, though this does count a lot of non-Western gamers, etc.). You start to see companies reaching for a bigger slice of the pie (e.g., Wii, built for both geeks and non-geeks). But I think that by and large, geeks could give a crap — they just want the goods, vs. “hey, we’re finally being marketed to in a big way” — so I don’t think that it’s a form of validation in itself. I think the validation comes from the increased awareness of geek culture by non-geeks, with a bit more crossover of participation in that culture by non-geeks, that serves to lend a bit of normalcy to geek culture.

]]> By: Carol Narlan http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds/comment-page-1#comment-883 Carol Narlan Thu, 14 Feb 2008 23:20:47 +0000 http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds#comment-883 Look at it from the perspective of the mating market. A young nerd has focus, high intelligence and education, and a dynamic new industry in which to exercise that focus and intelligence. He is also usually more or less socially clueless and often has poor dress-sense or else wears the same type of clothes all the type, which may inhibit his interactions with other women somewhat, once he's 'caught' by one particular woman. Yet despite his ungainly social skills, he'll often be quite at ease with young kids - another big bonus for potential mates with a desire for babies. From this perspective "cool" might overlap significantly with "attractive" for a certain kind of potential woman. So -- this is before we've even factored in the possible money-making potential, and the recent wave of media messages that 'nerds are cool'. If we see the mating market as a kind of gamble, nerds are a pretty good bet for a certain type of woman. Certainly better than some fast-talking fast-driving hard-drinking middle-manager. Look at it from the perspective of the mating market. A young nerd has focus, high intelligence and education, and a dynamic new industry in which to exercise that focus and intelligence. He is also usually more or less socially clueless and often has poor dress-sense or else wears the same type of clothes all the type, which may inhibit his interactions with other women somewhat, once he’s ‘caught’ by one particular woman. Yet despite his ungainly social skills, he’ll often be quite at ease with young kids – another big bonus for potential mates with a desire for babies. From this perspective “cool” might overlap significantly with “attractive” for a certain kind of potential woman. So — this is before we’ve even factored in the possible money-making potential, and the recent wave of media messages that ‘nerds are cool’. If we see the mating market as a kind of gamble, nerds are a pretty good bet for a certain type of woman. Certainly better than some fast-talking fast-driving hard-drinking middle-manager.

]]> By: Jason Tocci http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds/comment-page-1#comment-882 Jason Tocci Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:23:42 +0000 http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/what-does-bill-gates-have-to-do-with-the-revenge-of-the-nerds#comment-882 <b>On Stallman vs. Gates:</b> I suspect you'd find opinions all over the map on these two. For what it's worth, the conflict between these two a battle of epic proportions that has been <a href="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/open_source.png" rel="nofollow">considered before</a>. <b>On comparison with gay culture:</b> This has actually come up in the course of my research more than you might expect. People refer to themselves or others as "closet geeks" very frequently. And I do think that there's a sort of sexual tinge to this sometimes—a recognition of not being a "real man" (more often implied than "real woman") who can't get dates, not just a comparison in terms of secrecy for fear of being embarrassed or rejected. <a href="http://jinx.com" rel="nofollow">J!NX</a> used to have a "Closet Geek" shirt that labeled different parts of the brain with things like "Ardor," "Reticence," and "Pr0n." It's now a <a href="http://www.jinx.com/other_swag/stickers/geek/closet_geek.html" rel="nofollow">sticker</a> on their site, and the words aren't clear enough to see in their graphic of it; commenters are wondering what the words say, and noting that they hope there's no such thing as a closet geek, that such a thing would be a traitor to the cause, that they are ashamed to have been in the closet but their friends all convinced them to come out and be themselves. I don't think they're just making riffs on the discourse surrounding closeted homosexuality; based on others I've talked to, I really think they think of it this way. <b>On Gates and "living comfortably in your geek clothes":</b> I think that there's an implied sacrifice, though. You'd expect the Consumer Electronics Show to be a massive display of geekery, but as one blogger told me, it's too business-oriented to be really geeky. It took a bit of coaxing to get anybody at all to talk about Star Trek, robots, and such. Basically, the benefit to being a geek (if you have tech skill) is getting to do something you like for your work, but that doesn't necessarily mean you get to be in full-on "geek mode" 24/7. <b>On counterculture:</b> This is the biggest area that I haven't really had time to explore in my research. Christina Dunbar-Hester has done a good job focusing on that in her dissertation on low-power FM radio activists (which has a chapter on geek identity). I do sometimes feel like there's a difference—and feel free to correct me if this seems off—between people who <i>start</i> accepting the label 'geek' as part of an identity as a tech activist, and people who <i>start</i> accepting the label as a way of reclaiming it from those who made fun of them as kids. Not that you can't belong to both groups, but that seems to be two different ways of coming to identify oneself as a geek, with potentially divergent sets of ideals and notions of what it means to be a geek/nerd. <b>Also,</b> Church sent along <a href="http://blog.wired.com/geekdad/2008/02/geekdad-failure.html" rel="nofollow">a <i>Wired</i> link</a> that I think is pretty relevant to this conversation. The author is bummed that his kid chose to do a school project on an athlete (rather than a scientist or something) because the kid didn't want to be "nerdy": <blockquote>This is a kid whose parents are the editor of Wired Magazine and a former editor of Nature Genetics, who goes to a school in Emeryville,CA with Pixar on one side and biotech companies on the other, whose friends' parents are mostly scientists, professors or engineers. The kids go to summer camp at UC Berkeley, and know Steve Wozniak as the funny guy who showed them card tricks. The creator of the iPod comes in to speak at career day at school. What more could we have done to teach our kids that science and technology is cool?!?</blockquote> And here we have the giant disconnect between what it's like to be a geek as an adult versus a geek as a kid. The adult world is big enough that we can afford not to care about most of the people who think that (part of) being a geek is uncool. Not so, when you're a kid in a tiny, insulated social environment. Thanks again for all the comments, guys. (And anyone else reading, feel free to jump in. I'm still prepping this talk and all feedback is much appreciated.) On Stallman vs. Gates: I suspect you’d find opinions all over the map on these two. For what it’s worth, the conflict between these two a battle of epic proportions that has been considered before.

On comparison with gay culture: This has actually come up in the course of my research more than you might expect. People refer to themselves or others as “closet geeks” very frequently. And I do think that there’s a sort of sexual tinge to this sometimes—a recognition of not being a “real man” (more often implied than “real woman”) who can’t get dates, not just a comparison in terms of secrecy for fear of being embarrassed or rejected. J!NX used to have a “Closet Geek” shirt that labeled different parts of the brain with things like “Ardor,” “Reticence,” and “Pr0n.” It’s now a sticker on their site, and the words aren’t clear enough to see in their graphic of it; commenters are wondering what the words say, and noting that they hope there’s no such thing as a closet geek, that such a thing would be a traitor to the cause, that they are ashamed to have been in the closet but their friends all convinced them to come out and be themselves. I don’t think they’re just making riffs on the discourse surrounding closeted homosexuality; based on others I’ve talked to, I really think they think of it this way.

On Gates and “living comfortably in your geek clothes”: I think that there’s an implied sacrifice, though. You’d expect the Consumer Electronics Show to be a massive display of geekery, but as one blogger told me, it’s too business-oriented to be really geeky. It took a bit of coaxing to get anybody at all to talk about Star Trek, robots, and such. Basically, the benefit to being a geek (if you have tech skill) is getting to do something you like for your work, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you get to be in full-on “geek mode” 24/7.

On counterculture: This is the biggest area that I haven’t really had time to explore in my research. Christina Dunbar-Hester has done a good job focusing on that in her dissertation on low-power FM radio activists (which has a chapter on geek identity). I do sometimes feel like there’s a difference—and feel free to correct me if this seems off—between people who start accepting the label ‘geek’ as part of an identity as a tech activist, and people who start accepting the label as a way of reclaiming it from those who made fun of them as kids. Not that you can’t belong to both groups, but that seems to be two different ways of coming to identify oneself as a geek, with potentially divergent sets of ideals and notions of what it means to be a geek/nerd.

Also, Church sent along a Wired link that I think is pretty relevant to this conversation. The author is bummed that his kid chose to do a school project on an athlete (rather than a scientist or something) because the kid didn’t want to be “nerdy”:

This is a kid whose parents are the editor of Wired Magazine and a former editor of Nature Genetics, who goes to a school in Emeryville,CA with Pixar on one side and biotech companies on the other, whose friends’ parents are mostly scientists, professors or engineers. The kids go to summer camp at UC Berkeley, and know Steve Wozniak as the funny guy who showed them card tricks. The creator of the iPod comes in to speak at career day at school. What more could we have done to teach our kids that science and technology is cool?!?

And here we have the giant disconnect between what it’s like to be a geek as an adult versus a geek as a kid. The adult world is big enough that we can afford not to care about most of the people who think that (part of) being a geek is uncool. Not so, when you’re a kid in a tiny, insulated social environment.

Thanks again for all the comments, guys. (And anyone else reading, feel free to jump in. I’m still prepping this talk and all feedback is much appreciated.)

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