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	<title>Comments on: Will [insert geeky medium] ever grow up?</title>
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	<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up</link>
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		<title>By: Geek Studies &#187; Point-Blank Games Criticism</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up/comment-page-1#comment-1946</link>
		<dc:creator>Geek Studies &#187; Point-Blank Games Criticism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up#comment-1946</guid>
		<description>[...] is a topic I&#8217;ve touched on before, suggesting that video games will not be considered an &#8220;adult&#8221; medium until they [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is a topic I&#8217;ve touched on before, suggesting that video games will not be considered an &#8220;adult&#8221; medium until they [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up/comment-page-1#comment-1004</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 01:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up#comment-1004</guid>
		<description>No worries: took me awhile to get all my thoughts together, too. But now, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/03/the-motivations-and-problems-behind-geek-media-activism&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;behold&lt;/a&gt;! Verbosity!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No worries: took me awhile to get all my thoughts together, too. But now, <a href="http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/03/the-motivations-and-problems-behind-geek-media-activism" rel="nofollow">behold</a>! Verbosity!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt S</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up/comment-page-1#comment-979</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up#comment-979</guid>
		<description>And because 3 makes a nice round number, and I don&#039;t seem to be able to get my full thoughts together tonight, a hat tip for this post.  Once again, you end up pushing my mind into some really fun areas of thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And because 3 makes a nice round number, and I don&#8217;t seem to be able to get my full thoughts together tonight, a hat tip for this post.  Once again, you end up pushing my mind into some really fun areas of thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt S</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up/comment-page-1#comment-978</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up#comment-978</guid>
		<description>OK, realizing the above looks like random spam.  A bit more info.  The basic jist of my post is that I see the entire concept of making geeky mediums as a trap.  I can understand the motivation, but I don&#039;t see what there is to be gained from it.  What I can see is a whole list of things that can be lost.

Pull quote:

&quot;...they wouldn’t let us play with them when we were kids. And so we went off and created our own games and played amongst ourselves. Why should we give up our games, to go play theirs, now? I prefer our games. I find their games boring.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, realizing the above looks like random spam.  A bit more info.  The basic jist of my post is that I see the entire concept of making geeky mediums as a trap.  I can understand the motivation, but I don&#8217;t see what there is to be gained from it.  What I can see is a whole list of things that can be lost.</p>
<p>Pull quote:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;they wouldn’t let us play with them when we were kids. And so we went off and created our own games and played amongst ourselves. Why should we give up our games, to go play theirs, now? I prefer our games. I find their games boring.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt S</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up/comment-page-1#comment-977</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up#comment-977</guid>
		<description>So I kind of took the central idea here and ran with it in a different direction.  I&#039;m kind of curious to see what you&#039;re thoughts are.

http://tsuibhne.net/2008/03/15/real-art/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I kind of took the central idea here and ran with it in a different direction.  I&#8217;m kind of curious to see what you&#8217;re thoughts are.</p>
<p><a href="http://tsuibhne.net/2008/03/15/real-art/" rel="nofollow">http://tsuibhne.net/2008/03/15/real-art/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up/comment-page-1#comment-915</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 15:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up#comment-915</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t disagree that a number of games have already challenged the formal and content assumptions of the medium in revolutionary/evolutionary ways. I do think, though, that any game that really popularizes the idea that games can be &quot;adult&quot; will, in the eyes of critics &lt;i&gt;outside&lt;/i&gt; the fold, seem to depart from some major, expected convention that&#039;s easily associated with games being freakish and juvenile. &lt;i&gt;Marathon&lt;/i&gt; (which I&#039;ve never played) is still SF; &lt;i&gt;Shadow of the Colossus&lt;/i&gt; is still fantasy; both still involve killing enemies. Can we sell somebody on &quot;greatest videogame ever&quot; if it still seems to confirm for them their idea of what games are like?

I don&#039;t think &lt;i&gt;Maus&lt;/i&gt; could have gotten the reception it did if its characters had been drawn as superheroes and supervillains; it had to reach further back in the conventions of comics, to &quot;funny&quot; animals, which wasn&#039;t really the dominant genre of the comic book anymore (but still comments enough on comics&#039; history to be recognizable to readers). And I don&#039;t think it would&#039;ve worked as an action story, even if it had been focusing on escaping from concentration camps or whatever; it had to be an emotionally complicated biography/memoir. And the result that at least one reviewer proclaimed, &quot;&lt;i&gt;Maus&lt;/i&gt; is not a comic book,&quot; because they couldn&#039;t wrap their brain around the idea that this was the same form they had already discounted.

&quot;Mainstream&quot; comics and games for &quot;hardcore&quot; audiences have tried to become mature by tucking &quot;adult&quot; themes into traditional, action-packed genres. Ken Levine was pretty clear and unapologetic about this on &lt;i&gt;Bioshock&lt;/i&gt; because they needed it to sell. But this is not what will reach critics. 

Wii/Guitar Hero have departed from the controller scheme to popularize the idea that games aren&#039;t necessarily exclusionary and antisocial, which is great, but not exactly the same thing as saying that games are sophisticated. When that &quot;adult&quot;/&quot;sophisticated&quot; moment comes for games, I think people will feel a little anxiety about even using the term &quot;game.&quot; 

&lt;i&gt;Rosebud was a sleigh (with runners–not a tobaggan, which explains the domain’s availability.)&lt;/i&gt;

Thanks for crushing my dreams.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t disagree that a number of games have already challenged the formal and content assumptions of the medium in revolutionary/evolutionary ways. I do think, though, that any game that really popularizes the idea that games can be &#8220;adult&#8221; will, in the eyes of critics <i>outside</i> the fold, seem to depart from some major, expected convention that&#8217;s easily associated with games being freakish and juvenile. <i>Marathon</i> (which I&#8217;ve never played) is still SF; <i>Shadow of the Colossus</i> is still fantasy; both still involve killing enemies. Can we sell somebody on &#8220;greatest videogame ever&#8221; if it still seems to confirm for them their idea of what games are like?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think <i>Maus</i> could have gotten the reception it did if its characters had been drawn as superheroes and supervillains; it had to reach further back in the conventions of comics, to &#8220;funny&#8221; animals, which wasn&#8217;t really the dominant genre of the comic book anymore (but still comments enough on comics&#8217; history to be recognizable to readers). And I don&#8217;t think it would&#8217;ve worked as an action story, even if it had been focusing on escaping from concentration camps or whatever; it had to be an emotionally complicated biography/memoir. And the result that at least one reviewer proclaimed, &#8220;<i>Maus</i> is not a comic book,&#8221; because they couldn&#8217;t wrap their brain around the idea that this was the same form they had already discounted.</p>
<p>&#8220;Mainstream&#8221; comics and games for &#8220;hardcore&#8221; audiences have tried to become mature by tucking &#8220;adult&#8221; themes into traditional, action-packed genres. Ken Levine was pretty clear and unapologetic about this on <i>Bioshock</i> because they needed it to sell. But this is not what will reach critics. </p>
<p>Wii/Guitar Hero have departed from the controller scheme to popularize the idea that games aren&#8217;t necessarily exclusionary and antisocial, which is great, but not exactly the same thing as saying that games are sophisticated. When that &#8220;adult&#8221;/&#8221;sophisticated&#8221; moment comes for games, I think people will feel a little anxiety about even using the term &#8220;game.&#8221; </p>
<p><i>Rosebud was a sleigh (with runners–not a tobaggan, which explains the domain’s availability.)</i></p>
<p>Thanks for crushing my dreams.</p>
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		<title>By: Church</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up/comment-page-1#comment-914</link>
		<dc:creator>Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 03:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up#comment-914</guid>
		<description>The trick with comics is that the formal properties have been screwed with since day one, so there&#039;s nothing really surprising you can do there. Critical reception is all you&#039;ve got. (Little Nemo and Krazy Kat made the head shop cartoonists look uptight.)

Thinking on it further, it&#039;s interesting that &quot;Citizen Kane&quot; is the instant go-to for Best Film Of All Time. It probably got that as much because of the promise that Orson Wells held, as it&#039;s actual merits (and we were disappointed later--I&#039;d say that&#039;s another reason Marathon is the CK of games, except that it&#039;s missing the critical reception that cemented CK in popular culture. Also, no sleds.)

Gaming is interesting because the formal structure is, like comics, all over the place. The CK of games could be a Marathon decendent, or Guitar Hero, or a Wii game where you *finally* get a light saber. I suspect the first catagory has an edge with critics, but half of them are younger than I, these days, so who knows?

SPOILER ALERT:

Rosebud was a sleigh (with runners--not a tobaggan, which explains the domain&#039;s availability.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The trick with comics is that the formal properties have been screwed with since day one, so there&#8217;s nothing really surprising you can do there. Critical reception is all you&#8217;ve got. (Little Nemo and Krazy Kat made the head shop cartoonists look uptight.)</p>
<p>Thinking on it further, it&#8217;s interesting that &#8220;Citizen Kane&#8221; is the instant go-to for Best Film Of All Time. It probably got that as much because of the promise that Orson Wells held, as it&#8217;s actual merits (and we were disappointed later&#8211;I&#8217;d say that&#8217;s another reason Marathon is the CK of games, except that it&#8217;s missing the critical reception that cemented CK in popular culture. Also, no sleds.)</p>
<p>Gaming is interesting because the formal structure is, like comics, all over the place. The CK of games could be a Marathon decendent, or Guitar Hero, or a Wii game where you *finally* get a light saber. I suspect the first catagory has an edge with critics, but half of them are younger than I, these days, so who knows?</p>
<p>SPOILER ALERT:</p>
<p>Rosebud was a sleigh (with runners&#8211;not a tobaggan, which explains the domain&#8217;s availability.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up/comment-page-1#comment-912</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 16:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up#comment-912</guid>
		<description>Also, Church:

Absolutely NO google results (yet!) for the search term &quot;Tobogganman.&quot; Greatest game ever, here we come!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, Church:</p>
<p>Absolutely NO google results (yet!) for the search term &#8220;Tobogganman.&#8221; Greatest game ever, here we come!</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up/comment-page-1#comment-911</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 16:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up#comment-911</guid>
		<description>Hmm. I guess I imagined the distinction between a medium&#039;s &quot;Maus&quot; and its &quot;Citizen Kane&quot; as the difference between a product that shows it can be &quot;serious&quot; and a product that dramatically rethinks the medium&#039;s formal properties, rather than relying on the conventions of media that preceded it. (I was borrowing this from a great &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.slate.com/id/2179398/entry/2179795/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;game critics&#039; roundtable&lt;/a&gt; on Slate that I&#039;ve been meaning to link to and dissect since January...) Maus was great and all, but it was far from the most formally trailblazing thing Spiegelman ever worked on. But yeah—it is indeed the comic that got people thinking &quot;maybe these things can be artsy after all.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm. I guess I imagined the distinction between a medium&#8217;s &#8220;Maus&#8221; and its &#8220;Citizen Kane&#8221; as the difference between a product that shows it can be &#8220;serious&#8221; and a product that dramatically rethinks the medium&#8217;s formal properties, rather than relying on the conventions of media that preceded it. (I was borrowing this from a great <a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2179398/entry/2179795/" rel="nofollow">game critics&#8217; roundtable</a> on Slate that I&#8217;ve been meaning to link to and dissect since January&#8230;) Maus was great and all, but it was far from the most formally trailblazing thing Spiegelman ever worked on. But yeah—it is indeed the comic that got people thinking &#8220;maybe these things can be artsy after all.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Church</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up/comment-page-1#comment-910</link>
		<dc:creator>Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 02:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/02/will-insert-geeky-medium-ever-grow-up#comment-910</guid>
		<description>&quot;I don’t think the video gaming medium has found its Maus yet (leaving alone its Citizen Kane)&quot;

Er, Maus IS the Citizen Kane of comics.

The trick with a medium&#039;s &quot;CK moment&quot; is that it requires a critical infrastructure that&#039;s ready to acknowledge it. There were plenty of cinematic CKs before (and after) Citizen Kane. But Kane was there when there was a *serious* audience ready for it. 

Video games have a way to go. As I&#039;ve said before, I think Marathon was *a* CK game, but it doesn&#039;t seem to be *the* one. Commercial forces pushed Bungie into doing Halo, which is Marthon-lite. The tide will ebb and flow, the stars will align, and eventually someone will come up with *the* CK game when there&#039;s a *serious* audience waiting for it. It will then be dubbed the Greatest Game Of All Time, even though the final boss is a fraking sled...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don’t think the video gaming medium has found its Maus yet (leaving alone its Citizen Kane)&#8221;</p>
<p>Er, Maus IS the Citizen Kane of comics.</p>
<p>The trick with a medium&#8217;s &#8220;CK moment&#8221; is that it requires a critical infrastructure that&#8217;s ready to acknowledge it. There were plenty of cinematic CKs before (and after) Citizen Kane. But Kane was there when there was a *serious* audience ready for it. </p>
<p>Video games have a way to go. As I&#8217;ve said before, I think Marathon was *a* CK game, but it doesn&#8217;t seem to be *the* one. Commercial forces pushed Bungie into doing Halo, which is Marthon-lite. The tide will ebb and flow, the stars will align, and eventually someone will come up with *the* CK game when there&#8217;s a *serious* audience waiting for it. It will then be dubbed the Greatest Game Of All Time, even though the final boss is a fraking sled&#8230;</p>
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