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	<title>Comments on: A &#8220;Narrative Game&#8221; By Any Other Name?</title>
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		<title>By: Tripping to the blips of Bit.trip Beat » Infinite Lives</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/a-narrative-game-by-any-other-name/comment-page-1#comment-1937</link>
		<dc:creator>Tripping to the blips of Bit.trip Beat » Infinite Lives</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=266#comment-1937</guid>
		<description>[...] heard it argued that every game should have a &#8216;narrative&#8217;, and while this may not be true, by golly, Bit.trip: Beat has one. It reveals itself quietly, in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] heard it argued that every game should have a &#8216;narrative&#8217;, and while this may not be true, by golly, Bit.trip: Beat has one. It reveals itself quietly, in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/a-narrative-game-by-any-other-name/comment-page-1#comment-1151</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=266#comment-1151</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m actually responding to this on the basis of your most recent post, in which you said: &quot;Compare this to my suggestion...that some games might profit from being specifically designed as multiplayer or single player experiences rather than trying to shoehorn both into one interface.&quot;

Indeed, some games have done this. I think mainly of Quake III, which was basically designed really to be a multiplayer deathmatch game. The single-player was basically the same thing, only with AI controlled opponents instead of human players. That&#039;s why, when Quake IV reintroduced narrative, it took its cues from Quake II, sort of pretending Quake III never happened (that&#039;s right, Quake is the video game equivalent of &lt;em&gt;Highlander&lt;/em&gt;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m actually responding to this on the basis of your most recent post, in which you said: &#8220;Compare this to my suggestion&#8230;that some games might profit from being specifically designed as multiplayer or single player experiences rather than trying to shoehorn both into one interface.&#8221;</p>
<p>Indeed, some games have done this. I think mainly of Quake III, which was basically designed really to be a multiplayer deathmatch game. The single-player was basically the same thing, only with AI controlled opponents instead of human players. That&#8217;s why, when Quake IV reintroduced narrative, it took its cues from Quake II, sort of pretending Quake III never happened (that&#8217;s right, Quake is the video game equivalent of <em>Highlander</em>).</p>
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		<title>By: Geek Studies &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Locating Aesthetics Between Various Game Appeals</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/a-narrative-game-by-any-other-name/comment-page-1#comment-1148</link>
		<dc:creator>Geek Studies &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Locating Aesthetics Between Various Game Appeals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=266#comment-1148</guid>
		<description>[...] thoughtful and interesting. I also (almost) completely disagree with it. It fits neatly into the recent posts I&#8217;ve been doing on game narratives, appeals, and play styles, so I thought I&#8217;d [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] thoughtful and interesting. I also (almost) completely disagree with it. It fits neatly into the recent posts I&#8217;ve been doing on game narratives, appeals, and play styles, so I thought I&#8217;d [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/a-narrative-game-by-any-other-name/comment-page-1#comment-1143</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=266#comment-1143</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m slightly regretting breaking this conversation into a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/the-multiple-appeals-of-gaming&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;separate post&lt;/a&gt; because I&#039;m not sure where to post this now...

... But anyway, reading up on the &quot;simulationist&quot; approach a bit, I realize that this does probably represent another sort of appeal that might not necessarily be equivalent to wanting a narrative. What really drove this home was idly browsing through the &lt;i&gt;Mass Effect&lt;/i&gt; forums and stumbling upon a &lt;a href=&quot;http://masseffect.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=625887&amp;forum=123&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;conversation&lt;/a&gt; about whether one of the potential love interests in the game is really what guys want women to be like. 

Some comments indicate that people&#039;s response to the character was very personal—they liked or disliked her based on what they&#039;d want in a partner themselves. In contrast, my own reaction to that character depended very much on the type of protagonist I was trying to construct—one got along with her quite well, another kind of detested her. It was much more like characters into a story than like putting myself in a character.

The former, I suppose, is sort of a &quot;simulationist&quot; perspective, as opposed to a &quot;narrativist&quot; concern for plot, theme, and character coherence. (If I must be a stickler about my semi-rhyming terminology, I might make a distinction between &quot;fantasy&quot; and &quot;story.&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m slightly regretting breaking this conversation into a <a href="http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/the-multiple-appeals-of-gaming" rel="nofollow">separate post</a> because I&#8217;m not sure where to post this now&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230; But anyway, reading up on the &#8220;simulationist&#8221; approach a bit, I realize that this does probably represent another sort of appeal that might not necessarily be equivalent to wanting a narrative. What really drove this home was idly browsing through the <i>Mass Effect</i> forums and stumbling upon a <a href="http://masseffect.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=625887&#038;forum=123" rel="nofollow">conversation</a> about whether one of the potential love interests in the game is really what guys want women to be like. </p>
<p>Some comments indicate that people&#8217;s response to the character was very personal—they liked or disliked her based on what they&#8217;d want in a partner themselves. In contrast, my own reaction to that character depended very much on the type of protagonist I was trying to construct—one got along with her quite well, another kind of detested her. It was much more like characters into a story than like putting myself in a character.</p>
<p>The former, I suppose, is sort of a &#8220;simulationist&#8221; perspective, as opposed to a &#8220;narrativist&#8221; concern for plot, theme, and character coherence. (If I must be a stickler about my semi-rhyming terminology, I might make a distinction between &#8220;fantasy&#8221; and &#8220;story.&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/a-narrative-game-by-any-other-name/comment-page-1#comment-1141</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 07:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=266#comment-1141</guid>
		<description>Funny thing: Just occurred to me right now that &quot;campaign game&quot; invokes something more long-term or serialized, which is really how most videogame stories need to be experienced (and is much like how you&#039;d play a tabletop RPG). But part of me feels like the visual spectatorship element between a videogame RPG might be a different sort of experience from the oral storytelling element of a tabletop RPG ... thoughts?

And I must sheepishly admit that while &quot;gamist,&quot; &quot;narrativist,&quot; and &quot;simulationist&quot; are terms I have heard (probably through &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.costik.com/weblog/2004/09/no-press-anthlogy-8-original-complete.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Greg Costikyan&lt;/a&gt;), I am not very familiar with how they&#039;ve been deployed in recent theory...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny thing: Just occurred to me right now that &#8220;campaign game&#8221; invokes something more long-term or serialized, which is really how most videogame stories need to be experienced (and is much like how you&#8217;d play a tabletop RPG). But part of me feels like the visual spectatorship element between a videogame RPG might be a different sort of experience from the oral storytelling element of a tabletop RPG &#8230; thoughts?</p>
<p>And I must sheepishly admit that while &#8220;gamist,&#8221; &#8220;narrativist,&#8221; and &#8220;simulationist&#8221; are terms I have heard (probably through <a href="http://www.costik.com/weblog/2004/09/no-press-anthlogy-8-original-complete.html" rel="nofollow">Greg Costikyan</a>), I am not very familiar with how they&#8217;ve been deployed in recent theory&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: misuba</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/a-narrative-game-by-any-other-name/comment-page-1#comment-1140</link>
		<dc:creator>misuba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=266#comment-1140</guid>
		<description>I think campaign games is a marvelous term, precisely because it also applies to (many) tabletop games. &quot;Cinematic game&quot; is good too, maybe better, I don&#039;t know.

You are no doubt aware of the folks doing tabletop-RPG theory, and the proposed taxonomy of player expectations into &quot;Gamist,&quot; &quot;Narrativist,&quot; and &quot;Simulationist&quot;? (Note: anyone who is, please let&#039;s not argue about those terms here...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think campaign games is a marvelous term, precisely because it also applies to (many) tabletop games. &#8220;Cinematic game&#8221; is good too, maybe better, I don&#8217;t know.</p>
<p>You are no doubt aware of the folks doing tabletop-RPG theory, and the proposed taxonomy of player expectations into &#8220;Gamist,&#8221; &#8220;Narrativist,&#8221; and &#8220;Simulationist&#8221;? (Note: anyone who is, please let&#8217;s not argue about those terms here&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Geek Studies &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Multiple Appeals of Gaming</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/a-narrative-game-by-any-other-name/comment-page-1#comment-1135</link>
		<dc:creator>Geek Studies &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Multiple Appeals of Gaming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=266#comment-1135</guid>
		<description>[...] our discussion about what we should call heavily story-oriented games, we got to talking about what the different [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] our discussion about what we should call heavily story-oriented games, we got to talking about what the different [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/a-narrative-game-by-any-other-name/comment-page-1#comment-1133</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=266#comment-1133</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll answer the half that isn&#039;t kidding:

Aside from the fact that Choose Your Own Adventure™ is a trademarked series by Bantam, the term applies just fine and dandy to game stories that have branching narratives built into them, and applies especially well to those that have multiple branches (&lt;i&gt;Mass Effect&lt;/i&gt; has many; &lt;i&gt;Bioshock&lt;/i&gt; basically has two). 

I don&#039;t think it applies well to other sorts of narrative games, though. &lt;i&gt;Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth&lt;/i&gt; is most certainly a &quot;narrative game&quot; in that it is very centrally about following a plot and seeking out clues from plot elements (including listening to conversations and reading through found documents), but there&#039;s really only one path of events you can take through it if you want to survive and finish the game.

[Edited to add this paragraph for clarification...]

I guess if you&#039;re going to group &lt;i&gt;CoC: Dark Corners&lt;/i&gt; with more choose-your-own-adventure style games like &lt;i&gt;Mass Effect&lt;/i&gt; into some category of &quot;narrative games,&quot; you&#039;re focusing on how such games mix &lt;i&gt;traditional cinematic spectatorship&lt;/i&gt; with varying degrees of player input.  I think that element of spectatorship is shared by both kind of games, and is more relevant to the gameplay experience than some theorists have acknowledged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll answer the half that isn&#8217;t kidding:</p>
<p>Aside from the fact that Choose Your Own Adventure™ is a trademarked series by Bantam, the term applies just fine and dandy to game stories that have branching narratives built into them, and applies especially well to those that have multiple branches (<i>Mass Effect</i> has many; <i>Bioshock</i> basically has two). </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it applies well to other sorts of narrative games, though. <i>Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth</i> is most certainly a &#8220;narrative game&#8221; in that it is very centrally about following a plot and seeking out clues from plot elements (including listening to conversations and reading through found documents), but there&#8217;s really only one path of events you can take through it if you want to survive and finish the game.</p>
<p>[Edited to add this paragraph for clarification...]</p>
<p>I guess if you&#8217;re going to group <i>CoC: Dark Corners</i> with more choose-your-own-adventure style games like <i>Mass Effect</i> into some category of &#8220;narrative games,&#8221; you&#8217;re focusing on how such games mix <i>traditional cinematic spectatorship</i> with varying degrees of player input.  I think that element of spectatorship is shared by both kind of games, and is more relevant to the gameplay experience than some theorists have acknowledged.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/a-narrative-game-by-any-other-name/comment-page-1#comment-1132</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=266#comment-1132</guid>
		<description>Could we call them &quot;Choose Your Own Adventure Games&quot;? 

I&#039;m only half-kidding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could we call them &#8220;Choose Your Own Adventure Games&#8221;? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m only half-kidding.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/a-narrative-game-by-any-other-name/comment-page-1#comment-1131</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=266#comment-1131</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think my point is that terms are conflated. There’s the *release* (ie, the “game” you buy) and the *game* (ie, the game or game-variant you are playing.)&lt;/i&gt;

Yeah, that makes sense. This is kind of like the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.litencyc.com/php/stopics.php?rec=true&amp;UID=662&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;distinction&lt;/a&gt; that linguists/semioticians make between &lt;i&gt;langue&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;parole&lt;/i&gt;—that is, the general, formal system of a language versus any one specific utterance in actual speech. I don&#039;t know if anybody else is as much a theory nerd here as me, but I felt the need to point that out.

I think that you can design the &quot;release&quot; to encourage certain types of played &quot;games&quot; by the user. Some &quot;releases&quot; are more explicitly built to be played to resemble classic narrative structures, like a game that has action sequences punctuated by fairly linear cut scenes. If the cut scenes can be skipped in the process of playing through the game (or if narrative needs to be actively sought out, like with the &lt;i&gt;Marathon&lt;/i&gt; terminals), I&#039;d say storytelling was less of a priority in that release.

&lt;i&gt;I don’t see the problem with the term ‘narrative’, although I am unaware of what baggage it might be carrying.&lt;/i&gt;

Narratologists have often argued that &#039;narrative&#039; is the basic structure for how we think about the world. As a result, &lt;i&gt;everything&lt;/i&gt; can be described as &#039;narrative.&#039; Based on how some have interpreted this, &lt;i&gt;Tetris&lt;/i&gt; could be described as a &quot;narrative game&quot; just as much as &lt;i&gt;Mass Effect&lt;/i&gt;. I suppose a more vexing example, though, would be &lt;i&gt;Pac-man&lt;/i&gt;—look, there are characters, there&#039;s conflict, so why isn&#039;t this a &quot;narrative game&quot;? 

You could just say it&#039;s further away from &quot;narrative&quot; on the spectrum of narrative games, I suppose, but I feel like it would be convenient to not even have to qualify it that much at all.

&lt;i&gt;So it is perhaps a special case when the narrative itself is something you can interact with, as in Mass Effect and any game with branching storylines.&lt;/i&gt;

This is a very interesting point. Should I be asking not to come up with a name for narrative games, but to come up with a name for games that create the illusion of player control over narrative? Then again, the most interesting parts of &lt;i&gt;Bioshock&lt;/i&gt;&#039;s narrative are the scenes you &lt;i&gt;can&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; control, in my opinion (but perhaps those are all the more relevant because you do have some control over how you treat the Little Sisters). 

Perhaps it&#039;s enough to at least &lt;i&gt;make reference&lt;/i&gt; to the notion of player agency; in some games, it&#039;s a big deal that you play through scenes you can&#039;t win as opposed to just seeing them happen as cut scenes...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think my point is that terms are conflated. There’s the *release* (ie, the “game” you buy) and the *game* (ie, the game or game-variant you are playing.)</i></p>
<p>Yeah, that makes sense. This is kind of like the <a href="http://www.litencyc.com/php/stopics.php?rec=true&#038;UID=662" rel="nofollow">distinction</a> that linguists/semioticians make between <i>langue</i> and <i>parole</i>—that is, the general, formal system of a language versus any one specific utterance in actual speech. I don&#8217;t know if anybody else is as much a theory nerd here as me, but I felt the need to point that out.</p>
<p>I think that you can design the &#8220;release&#8221; to encourage certain types of played &#8220;games&#8221; by the user. Some &#8220;releases&#8221; are more explicitly built to be played to resemble classic narrative structures, like a game that has action sequences punctuated by fairly linear cut scenes. If the cut scenes can be skipped in the process of playing through the game (or if narrative needs to be actively sought out, like with the <i>Marathon</i> terminals), I&#8217;d say storytelling was less of a priority in that release.</p>
<p><i>I don’t see the problem with the term ‘narrative’, although I am unaware of what baggage it might be carrying.</i></p>
<p>Narratologists have often argued that &#8216;narrative&#8217; is the basic structure for how we think about the world. As a result, <i>everything</i> can be described as &#8216;narrative.&#8217; Based on how some have interpreted this, <i>Tetris</i> could be described as a &#8220;narrative game&#8221; just as much as <i>Mass Effect</i>. I suppose a more vexing example, though, would be <i>Pac-man</i>—look, there are characters, there&#8217;s conflict, so why isn&#8217;t this a &#8220;narrative game&#8221;? </p>
<p>You could just say it&#8217;s further away from &#8220;narrative&#8221; on the spectrum of narrative games, I suppose, but I feel like it would be convenient to not even have to qualify it that much at all.</p>
<p><i>So it is perhaps a special case when the narrative itself is something you can interact with, as in Mass Effect and any game with branching storylines.</i></p>
<p>This is a very interesting point. Should I be asking not to come up with a name for narrative games, but to come up with a name for games that create the illusion of player control over narrative? Then again, the most interesting parts of <i>Bioshock</i>&#8216;s narrative are the scenes you <i>can&#8217;t</i> control, in my opinion (but perhaps those are all the more relevant because you do have some control over how you treat the Little Sisters). </p>
<p>Perhaps it&#8217;s enough to at least <i>make reference</i> to the notion of player agency; in some games, it&#8217;s a big deal that you play through scenes you can&#8217;t win as opposed to just seeing them happen as cut scenes&#8230;</p>
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