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	<title>Comments on: Encouragement vs. Reward</title>
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	<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2009/11/encouragement-vs-reward</link>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2009/11/encouragement-vs-reward/comment-page-1#comment-2264</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=564#comment-2264</guid>
		<description>Excellent; thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent; thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: NIck Bowman</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2009/11/encouragement-vs-reward/comment-page-1#comment-2261</link>
		<dc:creator>NIck Bowman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 18:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=564#comment-2261</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll dig around for some of my own work on hedonic vs. eudianomic pleasure (under various levels of review), but Mary Beth Oliver has some work on the subject, as does Peter Vorderer and - I think - Art Raney and Ron Tamborini. There was a recent conference in Spain (Entertainment + Emotion) and I believe this distinction was a major part of that conference&#039;s proceedings, which I imagine will be published soon. Having worked with many of these folks, I&#039;m also quite familiar with this distinction myself. Let&#039;s stay in touch on this one, and let me know if you have difficulty finding the papers? I&#039;ll try and dig up some citations for you:

Oliver, M. B. &amp; Bartsch, A. (invited for publication). Appreciation of Entertainment: Importance of Virtue and Wisdom. International Journal of Arts and Technology.

Tamborini, R., Bowman, N. D., Eden, A., &amp; Grizzard, M. (in press). Defining Media Enjoyment as the Satisfaction of Intrinsic Needs. Journal of Communication.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll dig around for some of my own work on hedonic vs. eudianomic pleasure (under various levels of review), but Mary Beth Oliver has some work on the subject, as does Peter Vorderer and &#8211; I think &#8211; Art Raney and Ron Tamborini. There was a recent conference in Spain (Entertainment + Emotion) and I believe this distinction was a major part of that conference&#8217;s proceedings, which I imagine will be published soon. Having worked with many of these folks, I&#8217;m also quite familiar with this distinction myself. Let&#8217;s stay in touch on this one, and let me know if you have difficulty finding the papers? I&#8217;ll try and dig up some citations for you:</p>
<p>Oliver, M. B. &amp; Bartsch, A. (invited for publication). Appreciation of Entertainment: Importance of Virtue and Wisdom. International Journal of Arts and Technology.</p>
<p>Tamborini, R., Bowman, N. D., Eden, A., &amp; Grizzard, M. (in press). Defining Media Enjoyment as the Satisfaction of Intrinsic Needs. Journal of Communication.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2009/11/encouragement-vs-reward/comment-page-1#comment-2260</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=564#comment-2260</guid>
		<description>Thanks for commenting, Nick! I think I just need to write up a whole paper on it, as I&#039;ve come across so much evidence that (at least &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt;) games&#039; stories matter to (at least &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt;) players, but I&#039;m not sure whether this has been sufficiently described empirically researchers (so much as assumed and acknowledged by &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; game designers). I&#039;ve written about this in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.eludamos.org/index.php/eludamos/article/viewArticle/43/81&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;one published article&lt;/a&gt; and some posts around these parts, at least, including one on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/the-multiple-appeals-of-gaming&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;The Multiple Appeals of Gaming&quot;&lt;/a&gt; that makes the kind of distinction between games-as-games and games-as-stories, or at least games-with-stories. (See the trackbacks on that post for related articles.)

I haven&#039;t yet read about hedonic vs. eudianomic pleasure, but I&#039;ll look into this. Is this stuff from &lt;i&gt;Homo Ludens&lt;/i&gt; (sitting on my shelf but yet to be read…), or is there someone else I should be reading?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for commenting, Nick! I think I just need to write up a whole paper on it, as I&#8217;ve come across so much evidence that (at least <i>some</i>) games&#8217; stories matter to (at least <i>some</i>) players, but I&#8217;m not sure whether this has been sufficiently described empirically researchers (so much as assumed and acknowledged by <i>some</i> game designers). I&#8217;ve written about this in <a href="http://www.eludamos.org/index.php/eludamos/article/viewArticle/43/81" rel="nofollow">one published article</a> and some posts around these parts, at least, including one on <a href="http://www.geekstudies.org/2008/04/the-multiple-appeals-of-gaming" rel="nofollow">&#8220;The Multiple Appeals of Gaming&#8221;</a> that makes the kind of distinction between games-as-games and games-as-stories, or at least games-with-stories. (See the trackbacks on that post for related articles.)</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t yet read about hedonic vs. eudianomic pleasure, but I&#8217;ll look into this. Is this stuff from <i>Homo Ludens</i> (sitting on my shelf but yet to be read…), or is there someone else I should be reading?</p>
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		<title>By: NIck Bowman</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2009/11/encouragement-vs-reward/comment-page-1#comment-2259</link>
		<dc:creator>NIck Bowman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=564#comment-2259</guid>
		<description>Going back to your distinction between encouragement (via narrative) and reward (via challenge), I wonder how we could investigate this? 

Are you familiar with the distinction between hedonic pleasure qua enjoyment, and eudianomic pleasure via appreciation? It might be the case that some gamers &#039;enjoy&#039; conquering challenges, but others &#039;appreciate&#039; the deeper meaning of a game&#039;s story. 

Some newer media theory has gone in this direction...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going back to your distinction between encouragement (via narrative) and reward (via challenge), I wonder how we could investigate this? </p>
<p>Are you familiar with the distinction between hedonic pleasure qua enjoyment, and eudianomic pleasure via appreciation? It might be the case that some gamers &#8216;enjoy&#8217; conquering challenges, but others &#8216;appreciate&#8217; the deeper meaning of a game&#8217;s story. </p>
<p>Some newer media theory has gone in this direction&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: NIck Bowman</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2009/11/encouragement-vs-reward/comment-page-1#comment-2258</link>
		<dc:creator>NIck Bowman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=564#comment-2258</guid>
		<description>Jason,

I really appreciate your thoughts on this, and I&#039;ll have to delve into them a bit more. BUT one thing - one feeling - that I cannot shake is the assumption that the narrative has any meaning whatsoever for the gamer. 

This might sound a bit drastic, but consider the thought that video games might be thought to have more in common with a game of chess than a television show (the former involving a bounded set of rules and a clear goal, the latter involving narrative construction to create meaning in the audience). I&#039;ve often wondered how much audiences actually care about the narrative of a game (and, consequenty, thier actions in a game environment) when they are playing. Might it be the case that simply we are interested in &quot;doing x to defeat y&quot;? 

Perhaps this is less relevant in newer games as opposed to older games, but I often think of the 90s, when games were driven simply by graphics and gameplay - many older games still have no idea what the narrative behind Contra or Super Mario Bros. was, yet these games are fondly regarded as some of the best in the history of the medium.

Moreover, I even wonder the importance of newer games - and yes, even in RPGs. If one of the primary motivations for gameplay is/are challenge &amp; competition, then what room is there for narrative considerations? 

A thought excercise, maybe...I don&#039;t think that I&#039;d ever argue for the non-existence of narrative in games. But at the same time, there are scores of games with no narrative that are quite commercially successful, yet some games with great narratives that rate terribly.

OR, perhaps we need to reconsider our definition of narrative? It is also the case in video games that the user has an active hand in narrative construction...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>I really appreciate your thoughts on this, and I&#8217;ll have to delve into them a bit more. BUT one thing &#8211; one feeling &#8211; that I cannot shake is the assumption that the narrative has any meaning whatsoever for the gamer. </p>
<p>This might sound a bit drastic, but consider the thought that video games might be thought to have more in common with a game of chess than a television show (the former involving a bounded set of rules and a clear goal, the latter involving narrative construction to create meaning in the audience). I&#8217;ve often wondered how much audiences actually care about the narrative of a game (and, consequenty, thier actions in a game environment) when they are playing. Might it be the case that simply we are interested in &#8220;doing x to defeat y&#8221;? </p>
<p>Perhaps this is less relevant in newer games as opposed to older games, but I often think of the 90s, when games were driven simply by graphics and gameplay &#8211; many older games still have no idea what the narrative behind Contra or Super Mario Bros. was, yet these games are fondly regarded as some of the best in the history of the medium.</p>
<p>Moreover, I even wonder the importance of newer games &#8211; and yes, even in RPGs. If one of the primary motivations for gameplay is/are challenge &amp; competition, then what room is there for narrative considerations? </p>
<p>A thought excercise, maybe&#8230;I don&#8217;t think that I&#8217;d ever argue for the non-existence of narrative in games. But at the same time, there are scores of games with no narrative that are quite commercially successful, yet some games with great narratives that rate terribly.</p>
<p>OR, perhaps we need to reconsider our definition of narrative? It is also the case in video games that the user has an active hand in narrative construction&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2009/11/encouragement-vs-reward/comment-page-1#comment-2257</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=564#comment-2257</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t heard of it, but thanks for the tip! I&#039;ll see if I can check it out from the library when work quiets down (and of course I welcome you to tell your roommate&#039;s boy that you have a &lt;i&gt;famous* academic blogger friend&lt;/i&gt; who &lt;i&gt;loves free books&lt;/i&gt;).

* Only minor dishonesty required.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t heard of it, but thanks for the tip! I&#8217;ll see if I can check it out from the library when work quiets down (and of course I welcome you to tell your roommate&#8217;s boy that you have a <i>famous* academic blogger friend</i> who <i>loves free books</i>).</p>
<p>* Only minor dishonesty required.</p>
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		<title>By: Christiana</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2009/11/encouragement-vs-reward/comment-page-1#comment-2253</link>
		<dc:creator>Christiana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 16:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=564#comment-2253</guid>
		<description>Hi Jason-

My roommate&#039;s boy has an article coming out in this book - as the only other video game scholar I know, I was curious if it was something you were aware of...

http://www.amazon.com/Halos-Avatars-Playing-Video-Games/dp/0664232779

-C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jason-</p>
<p>My roommate&#8217;s boy has an article coming out in this book &#8211; as the only other video game scholar I know, I was curious if it was something you were aware of&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Halos-Avatars-Playing-Video-Games/dp/0664232779" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Halos-Avatars-Playing-Video-Games/dp/0664232779</a></p>
<p>-C</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Tocci</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2009/11/encouragement-vs-reward/comment-page-1#comment-2243</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Tocci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=564#comment-2243</guid>
		<description>Good point on MMOs. I&#039;ve been very interested to see how the new Bioware-developed Star Wars MMO handles this, as the marketing seems to be promoting it as something very akin to a single-player, narrative-driven game that just happens to take place in a shared, persistent environment. Is &quot;emergent storytelling&quot; enough of a narrative component to encourage certain kinds of behaviors and emotional reactions, or will MMOs be borrowing more from more authorial storytelling techniques to keep players invested even after they&#039;ve tired of level-grinding? 

Along similar lines to your example, I&#039;ve been enjoying playing &lt;i&gt;Borderlands&lt;/i&gt; in snippets here and there, but I suspect that as soon as I&#039;ve fully leveled a character or two, I&#039;ll call it quits unless I have a ton of friends still playing regularly. There may be a bazillion guns, but &quot;rewards&quot; in and of themselves only go so far to engage me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point on MMOs. I&#8217;ve been very interested to see how the new Bioware-developed Star Wars MMO handles this, as the marketing seems to be promoting it as something very akin to a single-player, narrative-driven game that just happens to take place in a shared, persistent environment. Is &#8220;emergent storytelling&#8221; enough of a narrative component to encourage certain kinds of behaviors and emotional reactions, or will MMOs be borrowing more from more authorial storytelling techniques to keep players invested even after they&#8217;ve tired of level-grinding? </p>
<p>Along similar lines to your example, I&#8217;ve been enjoying playing <i>Borderlands</i> in snippets here and there, but I suspect that as soon as I&#8217;ve fully leveled a character or two, I&#8217;ll call it quits unless I have a ton of friends still playing regularly. There may be a bazillion guns, but &#8220;rewards&#8221; in and of themselves only go so far to engage me.</p>
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		<title>By: blacksheepboy</title>
		<link>http://www.geekstudies.org/2009/11/encouragement-vs-reward/comment-page-1#comment-2242</link>
		<dc:creator>blacksheepboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geekstudies.org/?p=564#comment-2242</guid>
		<description>This issue has been one of the most problematic particularly for massively-multiplayer games. As computer and internet access has increased across wider swathes of consumer demographics, over the span of my own experience I have seen an across-the-board drop-off of in investment in gaming narrative and related increases in the energy and money spent on in-game content that rewards players through the mechanics of the game system itself. This hit me the most when I was playing World of Warcraft, a game I had been playing for years but in very small batches--I had finally gotten a character over level 60 and was flying around some new world when I realized I had absolutely no investment of my own in this new world and very little in the old one as well, and I quit soon after.

The examples of games you&#039;ve provided are interesting, where I think Bioshock is the most successful and nuanced example of incorporating a player into the game&#039;s story. Personally I hold out for games that incorporate the narrative within the gameplay dynamics not only from the start, but, honestly, also as a marketing strategy aimed to lure players into a choose your own adventure, like Heavy Rain. Though these attract my attention more now, I&#039;ve been a MMO-fan and supporter for years. I suppose I miss the investment in community-building by developers nowadays.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This issue has been one of the most problematic particularly for massively-multiplayer games. As computer and internet access has increased across wider swathes of consumer demographics, over the span of my own experience I have seen an across-the-board drop-off of in investment in gaming narrative and related increases in the energy and money spent on in-game content that rewards players through the mechanics of the game system itself. This hit me the most when I was playing World of Warcraft, a game I had been playing for years but in very small batches&#8211;I had finally gotten a character over level 60 and was flying around some new world when I realized I had absolutely no investment of my own in this new world and very little in the old one as well, and I quit soon after.</p>
<p>The examples of games you&#8217;ve provided are interesting, where I think Bioshock is the most successful and nuanced example of incorporating a player into the game&#8217;s story. Personally I hold out for games that incorporate the narrative within the gameplay dynamics not only from the start, but, honestly, also as a marketing strategy aimed to lure players into a choose your own adventure, like Heavy Rain. Though these attract my attention more now, I&#8217;ve been a MMO-fan and supporter for years. I suppose I miss the investment in community-building by developers nowadays.</p>
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